Political comment, revised January 25Joe Martin
Revised January 30
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On January 25th a friend posted some comments on my Facebook posting concering a film on Tibet, which had provided a link to excerpts from a new film about the Tibet autonomous region. His comments in many ways atempt to look at the Tibetan situation from the Chinese point of view, though I am sure there are many points of view in China, and the recent arrest of yet another Chinese dissident intellectual who wants the PRC to reconsider its treatment of Tibet is a case in point. However, my friend is an expert on China, so I moved the exchange to Peace and Pieces along with my response.
I have now removed my response to his critique of my comment on the Tibetan film. I have come to feel I cannot use my dominant position on my own blog to debate friends or close associates. That is how I will proceed with this blog. Anyone, may of course, submit a posting or response to what they read here. My friend's original comments, are below.
I hope soon to share my thoughts on Peace and Pieces, on the teachings of the Dalai Lama, which might one day do much good for social consciousness and spiritual well-being in a China: a China that he has repeatedly stated will include Tibet. -- JM
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ORIGINAL POSTING BY AUTHOR ON FACEBOOK
The grinding oppression of the people of Tibet under occupation -- being overwhelmed by calculated Sino-ization, a wave of Chinese immigration and Chinese control of all governmment and infrastructure, has not slackened. The unwillingness of the Party and the bureaucracy to negotiate autonomy and self-determination as a part of China -- the Dalai Lama's proposal -- reveals an astonishing lack of conscience, and an intolerance for large and coherent ethnic groups in China outside of the Han majority by the government. Courageous films like this one, for which the director must remain in prison for 6 years while his family has received no notification concerning his disappearance or location by the Chinese authorities, represent one of the few means of getting the truth out. There is less free media coverage in Tibet than other occupied peoples get -- even the Palestinians. To occupy a people and dominate their culture corrupts the spirit of great nations, whether it be China or the US or Russia: it asks for an increasing numbness to b... [Cut off by Facebook]
http://www.nomadsland.com/video/leaving-fear-behind-save-tibet/
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On January 25th a friend posted some comments on my Facebook posting concering a film on Tibet, which had provided a link to excerpts from a new film about the Tibet autonomous region. His comments in many ways atempt to look at the Tibetan situation from the Chinese point of view, though I am sure there are many points of view in China, and the recent arrest of yet another Chinese dissident intellectual who wants the PRC to reconsider its treatment of Tibet is a case in point. However, my friend is an expert on China, so I moved the exchange to Peace and Pieces along with my response.
I have now removed my response to his critique of my comment on the Tibetan film. I have come to feel I cannot use my dominant position on my own blog to debate friends or close associates. That is how I will proceed with this blog. Anyone, may of course, submit a posting or response to what they read here. My friend's original comments, are below.
I hope soon to share my thoughts on Peace and Pieces, on the teachings of the Dalai Lama, which might one day do much good for social consciousness and spiritual well-being in a China: a China that he has repeatedly stated will include Tibet. -- JM
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ORIGINAL POSTING BY AUTHOR ON FACEBOOK
The grinding oppression of the people of Tibet under occupation -- being overwhelmed by calculated Sino-ization, a wave of Chinese immigration and Chinese control of all governmment and infrastructure, has not slackened. The unwillingness of the Party and the bureaucracy to negotiate autonomy and self-determination as a part of China -- the Dalai Lama's proposal -- reveals an astonishing lack of conscience, and an intolerance for large and coherent ethnic groups in China outside of the Han majority by the government. Courageous films like this one, for which the director must remain in prison for 6 years while his family has received no notification concerning his disappearance or location by the Chinese authorities, represent one of the few means of getting the truth out. There is less free media coverage in Tibet than other occupied peoples get -- even the Palestinians. To occupy a people and dominate their culture corrupts the spirit of great nations, whether it be China or the US or Russia: it asks for an increasing numbness to b... [Cut off by Facebook]
http://www.nomadsland.com/video/leaving-fear-behind-save-tibet/
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From the film website: “Leaving Fear Behind” is a heroic film shot by a Tibetan inside Tibet, to bring Tibetan voices to the Beijing Olympic Games. The filmmaker spend five months traveling in Tibet on a motorcycle and interviewing hundreds of ordinary Tibetans about their views about the Dalai Lama.
Filmmaker Dhondup Wangchen, the Tibetan filmmaker is currently in Chinese detention, has been sentenced to six years imprisonment by the provincial court in Xining (capital of Qinghai province). The sentencing took place on 28 December 2009 but his relatives in Xining were neither informed about the trial nor the verdict.
Filmmaker Dhondup Wangchen, the Tibetan filmmaker is currently in Chinese detention, has been sentenced to six years imprisonment by the provincial court in Xining (capital of Qinghai province). The sentencing took place on 28 December 2009 but his relatives in Xining were neither informed about the trial nor the verdict.
These responses have been moved from another site by the blog writer.
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ORIGINAL POSTING BY AUTHOR ON FACEBOOK
Joe Martin: The grinding oppression of the people of Tibet under occupation -- being overwhelmed by calculated Sino-ization, a wave of Chinese immigration and Chinese control of all governmment and infrastructure, has not slackened. The unwillingness of the Party and the bureaucracy to negotiate autonomy and self-determination as... a part of China -- the Dalai Lama's proposal -- reveals a shocking lack of consicnece and an intolerance for large and coherent ethnic groups in China outside of the Han majority. Heroic films like this one -- for which the director must remain in prison for 6 years while his family has received no notification concerning his disappearance or location by the Chinese authorities--represent one of the few means of getting the truth out. There is less free media coverage in Tibet than other occupied peoples get -- even the Palestinians. To occupy a people and dominate their culture corrupts the spirits of great potentially nations: it asks for an increasing numbness to b... [Cut off by Facebook]
http://www.nomadsland.com/video/leaving-fear-behind-save-tibet/
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FIRST REPLY POST Andrew Halper:
Agreed entirely (although I could only read up to "it asks for an increasing numbness to..." - the rest was not readable. The part I could read is a fair description of what is happening - the situation is dire indeed. I've been to Tibet 4 times and I would say that although the worst period was the Cultural Revolution in terms of violence, the large-scale population movements are having an enormous impact, as you describe.
One point of dissent on my part, however: I don't agree with the implication of the comment that "There is less free media coverage in Tibet than other occupied peoples get -- even the Palestinians". It's "even the Palestinians" that I object to, as if their situation vis a vis free media coverage was one of the most egregious examples in the world. That is far from being the case.
Despite sometimes onerous and arbitrary restrictions, and some cases of apparently officially sanctioned (or perhaps covered up) violence against some reporters by some units of the Tsahal, the Palestinians get far more free (and usually positive, at least here in Europe) media coverage than most other occupied peoples. The Keren, the Chechnians, the peoples of Southern Sudan and Darfur, the people of Western Sahara (and by the way, no-one's talking about boycotting the Moroccans!!), the Shan of Burma, for a long time the people of East Timor....and there are many other examples. ... See More
And media coverage is just one aspect: there are Israeli human rights organisations combatting the occupation, both politically and in the Israeli courts, and combatting restrictions on reporting, and not infrequently winning in those courts (and most of the judgements get enforced as well). The reporting in Haaretz itself is exemplary in terms of getting the Palestinians' positions out into the English and Hebrew-reading domains. Nothing remotely comparable exists for the Tibetans. If you had substituted any of these other peoples for "Palestinians", it would have been more accurate! One cannot reasonably put the Tibetan and Palestinian cases in the same box....
Shalom/Salaam!
Andrew
Fri at 6:54am
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JOE MARTIN REPLIES: POST:
ReplyDeleteYes, that is precisely why I wrote that "even the Palistinians" -- the most discussed example of as suffering occupied people, with massive unemployement (like the Tib etans), subject to military raids, death by snipers, 14,000 structures destroyed and bill-dozed since the last intifada. For these reasons people have held the Palestinians up as the... See More most egregious example of occupation. But they have a relatively free press, and they are not subject to tight, pretty much totalitarian (yes, I mean totalitarian, in the Orwellian sense) surveillance in their daily lives. The point is precisely, that as regards a free flow of information, the Palestinians do not have it nearly as bad as Tibetans in the Tibet Autonomous region. -- JM
Fri at 2:45pm
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Andrew Halper i agree with that last point.
ReplyDeleteIt is certainly the case that the Palestinians are the "most discussed example of suffering occupied people", as you state, but if "people have held the Palestinians up as the most egregious example of occupation", it is wildly incorrect for them to do so, no matter how widely held as a viewpoint and notwithstanding the real plight of many of the Palestinians. A
ctually, every example of bad policies or politics, or mistreatment of people, deserves to be looked at and addressed on its own, and it is invidious to make comparisons.... See More
But in a context in which we routinely see (here in Britain anyway) the situation of the Palestinians compared to that of the Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe, and concomitantly in which we routinely see the Israelis compared explicitly to Nazis), i do have to mention that exaggeration of the Palestinian situation ("the most discussed example of suffering occupied people" as you accurately state) is not based on objective assessment nor on sound knowledge of what is actually happening in the world today or what happened in such recent history.
That issue gets me very riled up but it doesn't obscure to me, of course, the real suffering of many Palestinians and the real hardships many of them endure -- a good deal of which could be avoided if (a) the parties - Israelis, Fatah, Hamas, neighbouring states - would become more reasonable and thus brought the region closer to peace, and (b) the currently occupying power (israel) which does exercise important responsibilities under international law were to moderate some of its policies in the meantime.....
now, i only wish it were possible to even entertain such thoughts about China and Tibet! But I dont think anything will make the PRC Government budge on these issues....
Fri at 3:37pm ·
NEXT REPLY POST (Transferred to this site from Blog Writer from Facebook)
ReplyDeleteAndrew Halper Responds:
I should unpack my comments a bit more. in the case of israel/palestine, there is in my view considerable hope -well, if not "considerable" then at least some reason to realistically hope.
Let me consider the israeli side first. although there are some bad policies, not all the policies are terrible. Moreover, and more importantly, there is also a citizenry which largely subscribes to democratic and humane values - that is why the "first lebanon war" of 1982 brought over 400,000 israelis onto the street in protest. Yes, a long time ago, and lots of water under the bridge since then. but still - we see numerous ngo initiatives for peace and to uphold rights against arbitrary expropriations etc.
(my main intention is to contrast the israeli government and polity with the chinese government and overwhelmingly Han Chinese polity/populace, but for sake of some balance I will say a word or two about the Palestinians.) ... See More
The picture is mixed. Politics are disturbingly increasingly dominated by Hamas (an explicit branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, founded 90 years ago in Egypt) and funded by Iran, dedicated to anti-semitism (officially enshrined in its Charter by its approving reference to the Protocols). However, there are also some important elements of more reasonable and accomodating, lets say ecumenical thinking. Both Israel and Palestine have their Elie Barnavi and Sari Nusseibeh....that said, there is a reason why the christian population of west bank, gaza and indeed nearly everywhere else in middle east, is under severe pressure and is decamping rapidly - that is due to islamic fundamentalism which is driving the christians out. Still, there remain important reasonable elements within the muslim populations.
Lets go back to israel and contrast it with the chinese situation. Nothing comparable. The overwhelming majority of Chinese do not see anything particularly disquieting taking place in Tibet. Many are outraged that the Tibetans are not more grateful for the civilising developmental initiatives of the PRC Government, which builds roads and hospitals etc! Thus, in the PRC we see neither a governmental disposition to discuss autonomy nor the slightest bit of public pressure to do so. I see no hope for anything near term there. That sounds stark but that's my view - until there is deep fundamental political change in China "proper", it is unrealistic to hope for much in Tibet. That said there are some political constraints -- even in China the "carrying capacity" for many Tiananmens is limited - there is public opinion even in china. China's government does not care what foreigners think.....but it DOES care what Chinese people think.
unfortunately most pro- tibetan activists (probably all of them) are or seem completely uninterested in trying to influence Chinese public opinion. The chinese public - the urban public or that part of it which is aware of such activists' existence -- is simply hostile to them because they correctly perceive in many of their messages a sort of anti-Chinese vehemence. This touches a nerve, based on some traumatic developments in chinese history - foreign incursions and unequal treaties, but also china's self-inflicted backwardness and thus loss of its sense of superiority.
ANDREW HALPER CONTINUES (Transferred by blog writer from Facebook)
ReplyDeleteANDREW:
thus, to summarise
1. china will not treat the tibetans well until it treats its own people well
2. Human rights improvement in china follows domestic not external pressure. The internet (which is not "external pressure" but a technological communications revolution for china as much as the west) does far far more to advance HR in the long run than any amount of external pressure from governments or NGOs, which accomplish nothing.
3. pro tibetan activists - especially those who glide into advocacy for tibetan independence, and there are a lot of them -- just piss off the chinese public. Unfortunately, it may be that they would be more effective on behalf of the tibetans if they (the activists) converted themselves into respectful helpful interlocuters with Chinese Government, seeking ways to conduct civil society, legal system etc exchanges to strengthen the incipient forces of democratisation which actually do exist in china (subject of another massively long posting later!).
But flying the Tibetan flag feels more satisfying....
I am not in any way disdainful of such activists but many of the ones i have talked to (at least here in London) are simply maximalists - lip service is given to the Dalai Lamas quite reasonable proposals (yes, I subscribe to them as well) but actually many seem so anti-Chinese that they will fail to enter into any kind of eye-opening dialogue with Chinese people or any representatives of the Chinese government they may meet.
For the record - Joe, this is not an argumentum contra you or your postings per se.....(readers who know you will be aware of the fine sublety of your political thinking!).
i just used this as an opportunity to vent my frustrations with the way so very much of the pro-tibetan "movement" conducts itself!!
shalom / salaam
andrew
Sat at 3:22am
This comment has been removed by the author.
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